China itself refers to its system as “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics,” indicating that they acknowledge capitalist mechanisms within their socialist framework. I didn’t say China is capitalist (although it is technically correct to say that at present China is state-capitalist with hopes of transitioning to full on socialism), I only said Deng introduced capitalist elements to offset economic downturn which, if i may remind you, resulted in the quadrupling of China’s GDP. Calling it market socialism is a matter of nomenclature alone.
You’re still making revisionist claims in your analysis of Soviet history, but i don’t even know if i have the strength to go on as it’s just back and forth.
SWCC introduced controlled markets, the point about Dialectics is that it isn’t accurate to call them “Capitalist elements.” China already considers itself Socialist, it hopes to transition to later stages of Socialist development. The claim you’re drawing from, that China plans to be a “developed Socialist country by 20XX” is from the standpoint of a country that considers itself Socialist already. We can talk more about SWCC if you want, and how a Socialist Market Economy doesn’t at all function as a Capitalist economy even if it has markets, but that’s not the main point here.
I really want to ask, what claim about the USSR is revisionist? That millions were counted as purged, but purges don’t mean execution? That the KGB’s internal documentation indicates 700,000 were condemned to death, not 12 million like Conquest states, and further that the Soviet justice system frequently didn’t actually execute, just rehabilitate? That there were real assassinations and reasons calling for the Great Purge, like Trotskyist factions working to sabotage factories?
I never once denied that many people were executed. This is undeniable fact, of course it is. However, this was not a case of a rogue state murdering 12 million innocent people, and portraying it as such is part of Western distortion. If you don’t want to continue, I’d suggest digging more into the subject than Wikipedia alone, there are many books on the subject based on archival evidence.
What makes a system capitalist if not markets, private ownership, and wage labor? Self-identification does not determine economic reality.
The revisionism I’m referring to is: Your claim that the Soviet justice system “frequently didn’t actually execute” those sentenced to death is false. Archival NKVD data shows that most of the 700,000 sentenced to death were executed.
Your claim that the purges were primarily about “Trotskyists". The Great Purge targeted high-ranking Party officials, innocent civilians, and the Red Army, NOT just saboteurs. E.g., Stalin purged 80% of his military leadership before WW2. Were all of them traitors?
If Soviet archives themselves acknowledge hundreds of thousands of executions, how is that a “Western lie"? If the KGB’s own documents contradict Stalinist apologists, why should we trust modern revisionists instead?
I have said it before, a system is determined by that which is Primary in it. This is Dialectical and Historical Matetialism. If 90% of the economy is public but it has 10% markets, is this Capitalist, or Socialist? What about 50/50? If we ask Marx, some countries were Capitalist even before markets had overtaken 50% of production. This is because Markets were primary in the Capitalist mode of production. In China, markets are not primary, public ownership and planning is.
As for the claim of revisionism, where are you getting the archival evidence that the vast majority were in fact executed? I’d like to see the numbers you found, personally, but moreover you just admitted that not all of them were killed. Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed, you keep moving goal posts to call me a liar without acknowledging that you were just wrong, and willing to accept whatever number you wanted.
As for the purges, many weren’t “traitors” outright. Many were corrupt, criminals, inefficient, etc. That’s why of the millions purged, only a fraction were actually condemned to death, most were just expelled from the party. Some were members of the White Army that were allowed in government until the purges. Many were legitimate fascist infiltrators friendly to the Nazis, who had risen to power in Nazi Germany and were heavily involved with wrecking the Soviet State.
So far, the only “revisionism” seems to be your understanding of the word “frequently” to mean what I assume you interpreted as “overwhelming majority,” and not, you know, often enough to not be insignificant in the greater context. One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible, rather than trying to reach an understanding or consensus. Whenever there can possible be percieved a gray area in my words, you take it to the extreme, which is generally unhelpful.
Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed,
Any million number was referring to the greater Stalinist terror not explicitly the purges. That was my mistake (which is a direct result of you arguing me towards tiredness if i might say).
From the Wikipedia article i initially cited on the graves found:
Between 5 August 1937 and 17 November 1938 the scale of killing reached its apogee. In a series of 12 national operations the NKVD executed at least 680,000 men and women. Original source in Russian That is the documented total: the real figure is almost certainly higher. In preparation for mass murder on such a scale the NKVD People’s Commissar Yezhov instructed his subordinates throughout the Soviet Union to identify areas not far from the major urban centres where thousands of bodies could be quickly concealed. This was described by the late Arseny Roginsky. Also in Russian
One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible,
I don’t always want to do that, you denying the facts leads me to.
China itself refers to its system as “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics,” indicating that they acknowledge capitalist mechanisms within their socialist framework. I didn’t say China is capitalist (although it is technically correct to say that at present China is state-capitalist with hopes of transitioning to full on socialism), I only said Deng introduced capitalist elements to offset economic downturn which, if i may remind you, resulted in the quadrupling of China’s GDP. Calling it market socialism is a matter of nomenclature alone.
You’re still making revisionist claims in your analysis of Soviet history, but i don’t even know if i have the strength to go on as it’s just back and forth.
SWCC introduced controlled markets, the point about Dialectics is that it isn’t accurate to call them “Capitalist elements.” China already considers itself Socialist, it hopes to transition to later stages of Socialist development. The claim you’re drawing from, that China plans to be a “developed Socialist country by 20XX” is from the standpoint of a country that considers itself Socialist already. We can talk more about SWCC if you want, and how a Socialist Market Economy doesn’t at all function as a Capitalist economy even if it has markets, but that’s not the main point here.
I really want to ask, what claim about the USSR is revisionist? That millions were counted as purged, but purges don’t mean execution? That the KGB’s internal documentation indicates 700,000 were condemned to death, not 12 million like Conquest states, and further that the Soviet justice system frequently didn’t actually execute, just rehabilitate? That there were real assassinations and reasons calling for the Great Purge, like Trotskyist factions working to sabotage factories?
I never once denied that many people were executed. This is undeniable fact, of course it is. However, this was not a case of a rogue state murdering 12 million innocent people, and portraying it as such is part of Western distortion. If you don’t want to continue, I’d suggest digging more into the subject than Wikipedia alone, there are many books on the subject based on archival evidence.
What makes a system capitalist if not markets, private ownership, and wage labor? Self-identification does not determine economic reality.
The revisionism I’m referring to is: Your claim that the Soviet justice system “frequently didn’t actually execute” those sentenced to death is false. Archival NKVD data shows that most of the 700,000 sentenced to death were executed.
Your claim that the purges were primarily about “Trotskyists". The Great Purge targeted high-ranking Party officials, innocent civilians, and the Red Army, NOT just saboteurs. E.g., Stalin purged 80% of his military leadership before WW2. Were all of them traitors?
If Soviet archives themselves acknowledge hundreds of thousands of executions, how is that a “Western lie"? If the KGB’s own documents contradict Stalinist apologists, why should we trust modern revisionists instead?
I have said it before, a system is determined by that which is Primary in it. This is Dialectical and Historical Matetialism. If 90% of the economy is public but it has 10% markets, is this Capitalist, or Socialist? What about 50/50? If we ask Marx, some countries were Capitalist even before markets had overtaken 50% of production. This is because Markets were primary in the Capitalist mode of production. In China, markets are not primary, public ownership and planning is.
As for the claim of revisionism, where are you getting the archival evidence that the vast majority were in fact executed? I’d like to see the numbers you found, personally, but moreover you just admitted that not all of them were killed. Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed, you keep moving goal posts to call me a liar without acknowledging that you were just wrong, and willing to accept whatever number you wanted.
As for the purges, many weren’t “traitors” outright. Many were corrupt, criminals, inefficient, etc. That’s why of the millions purged, only a fraction were actually condemned to death, most were just expelled from the party. Some were members of the White Army that were allowed in government until the purges. Many were legitimate fascist infiltrators friendly to the Nazis, who had risen to power in Nazi Germany and were heavily involved with wrecking the Soviet State.
So far, the only “revisionism” seems to be your understanding of the word “frequently” to mean what I assume you interpreted as “overwhelming majority,” and not, you know, often enough to not be insignificant in the greater context. One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible, rather than trying to reach an understanding or consensus. Whenever there can possible be percieved a gray area in my words, you take it to the extreme, which is generally unhelpful.
Any million number was referring to the greater Stalinist terror not explicitly the purges. That was my mistake (which is a direct result of you arguing me towards tiredness if i might say).
From the Wikipedia article i initially cited on the graves found:
I don’t always want to do that, you denying the facts leads me to.
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